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Well, Wonder Woman is a bust. (Sorry - lol!)

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eviltwit's picture
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http://www.deadline.com/2011/05/wonder-woman-not-going-forward-at-nbc-ma...

Can't say I didn't see that coming. But, I do wonder (and despair) why it's so damn hard to make a female-helmed superhero on-screen successful!

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I just don't think a campy, chick-lit version of WW could work today. Not with the superhero genre becoming more 'legitimate' in terms of the talent and money that is being thrown at it.

Or maybe the show just sucked, I don't know.

I guess this means the pilot won't air now? I'm sure bootlegged versions will appear on YouTube or in shady comic-con booths before the year is out.

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Jenna M. Pitman's picture
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eviltwit wrote:

http://www.deadline.com/2011/05/wonder-woman-not-going-forward-at-nbc-manns-world-may-be-shopped-to-cable/

Can't say I didn't see that coming. But, I do wonder (and despair) why it's so damn hard to make a female-helmed superhero on-screen successful!

Because they don't treat it the same way they treat male superheroes. They don't give them respect and ALWAYS reduce them to sex. In this case? They made Wonder Woman into Ally McBeal (small surprise when they got the creator of the show to write for them) and I don't want to see a WW who spends her time painting nails and crying that no one thinks her tits are large enough. I want to see a WW who embraces her heritage, who can play the game like men can. Who doesn't wallow in a pit of "men reject me!!!" despair. Who is someone I can look up to.

The Birds of Prey show also failed to make the super women in their scripts believable. Helena is a crime fighter (who doesn't wear a costume at all, much less one I like) who ALSO is a bartender. At night. When she's working? Why can Dianah do EVERYTHING? Why does Barbra work at a freaking school and pine after a teacher when we all KNOW she is going to be with Dick Greyson?! (Plus bad writing, bad acting - from everyone but Barbra and Harley - and bad directing) It was just a bad show.

Had they given it the same chance that they had given Smallville it would have gone a lot better.

I feel like when people see strong women they think "Oh, that'll be easy, put some pretty women up there who want men and can hold a weapon and we're golden! Buffy and Xena did it, so can we!" without stopping to ask WHY it works. And what people want from strong women.

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Jenna M. Pitman wrote:
eviltwit wrote:

http://www.deadline.com/2011/05/wonder-woman-not-going-forward-at-nbc-manns-world-may-be-shopped-to-cable/

Can't say I didn't see that coming. But, I do wonder (and despair) why it's so damn hard to make a female-helmed superhero on-screen successful!

Because they don't treat it the same way they treat male superheroes. They don't give them respect and ALWAYS reduce them to sex. In this case? They made Wonder Woman into Ally McBeal (small surprise when they got the creator of the show to write for them) and I don't want to see a WW who spends her time painting nails and crying that no one thinks her tits are large enough. I want to see a WW who embraces her heritage, who can play the game like men can. Who doesn't wallow in a pit of "men reject me!!!" despair. Who is someone I can look up to.

The Birds of Prey show also failed to make the super women in their scripts believable. Helena is a crime fighter (who doesn't wear a costume at all, much less one I like) who ALSO is a bartender. At night. When she's working? Why can Dianah do EVERYTHING? Why does Barbra work at a freaking school and pine after a teacher when we all KNOW she is going to be with Dick Greyson?! (Plus bad writing, bad acting - from everyone but Barbra and Harley - and bad directing) It was just a bad show.

Had they given it the same chance that they had given Smallville it would have gone a lot better.

I feel like when people see strong women they think "Oh, that'll be easy, put some pretty women up there who want men and can hold a weapon and we're golden! Buffy and Xena did it, so can we!" without stopping to ask WHY it works. And what people want from strong women.

Go Jenna! My thoughts exactly

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I liked Dark Angel. James Cameron knows how to showcase a badass woman.

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Jenna M. Pitman's picture
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Hans wrote:

I liked Dark Angel. James Cameron knows how to showcase a badass woman.

Correction: When James Cameron isn't being a money-grubbing whore playing with cat people he knows how to showcase a badass woman.

I fixed it Tongue

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Jenna M. Pitman wrote:
Hans wrote:

I liked Dark Angel. James Cameron knows how to showcase a badass woman.

Correction: When James Cameron isn't being a money-grubbing whore playing with cat people he knows how to showcase a badass woman.

I fixed it Tongue

Haha, come on now. It's really not his fault that he's a genius. People shouldn't hate him for it.

At least nobody has said he should be shot and killed as they did during Kubrick's day. Genius is always misunderstood.

Besides in Avatar he had Sigourney Weaver being a badass again. How can you not love that Sigourney?

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Jenna M. Pitman's picture
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I didn't care for her character in that movie. I didn't hate the movie like everyone else did but I REALLY don't think it was his finest moment. UNobtainium? Come on. Let's get clever here Tongue

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Jenna M. Pitman wrote:

I didn't care for her character in that movie. I didn't hate the movie like everyone else did but I REALLY don't think it was his finest moment. UNobtainium? Come on. Let's get clever here Tongue

That is an actual scientific term though. I agree it's not his best but personally I loved it. I saw it around 8 times in the theatre in 2D, 3D and Imax.

My favorite of his is Aliens, The Abyss, True Lies and Titanic 'cause I've been a Titanic geek since I was a boy.

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Hans wrote:

Besides in Avatar he had Sigourney Weaver being a badass again. How can you not love that Sigourney?

But I want to see her being a bad-ass. Not some giant blue cat version of her. Tongue

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I LOVE Aliens, and I really really really liked the first Terminator and Terminator 2 and The Abyss.

With True Lies and Titanic I have to admit that they weren't speculative fiction enough to hold me.

And I enjoyed Avatar, just felt he phoned it in Tongue (other than the effects)

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Cash Bailey wrote:
Hans wrote:

Besides in Avatar he had Sigourney Weaver being a badass again. How can you not love that Sigourney?

But I want to see her being a bad-ass. Not some giant blue cat version of her. Tongue

Yeah but the giant blue cat version looked just like her. Don't tell me you would've kicked it out of bed even though it would have had a hard time fitting.

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Jenna M. Pitman wrote:

I LOVE Aliens, and I really really really liked the first Terminator and Terminator 2 and The Abyss.

With True Lies and Titanic I have to admit that they weren't speculative fiction enough to hold me.

And I enjoyed Avatar, just felt he phoned it in Tongue (other than the effects)

Cameron isn't so great at writing and he easily admits that. Still, I thought there were definitely moments of great dialogue.

Col. Quaritch: "You are not in Kansas anymore. You are on Pandora, ladies and gentlemen. Respect that fact every second of every day. If there is a Hell, you might wanna go there for some R & R after a tour on Pandora. Out there beyond that fence every living thing that crawls, flies, or squats in the mud wants to kill you and eat your eyes for jujubes. We have an indigenous population of humanoids called the Na'vi. They're fond of arrows dipped in a neurotoxin that will stop your heart in one minute - and they have bones reinforced with naturally occurring carbon fiber. They are very hard to kill. As head of security, it is my job to keep you alive. I will not succeed. Not with all of you. If you wish to survive, you need to cultivate a strong, mental aptitude. You got to obey the rules: Pandora rules. Rule number one..."

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Cash Bailey wrote:

But I want to see her being a bad-ass. Not some giant blue cat version of her. Tongue

I don't have anything constructive to contribute just: LOL!

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Jenna M. Pitman wrote:
eviltwit wrote:

http://www.deadline.com/2011/05/wonder-woman-not-going-forward-at-nbc-manns-world-may-be-shopped-to-cable/

Can't say I didn't see that coming. But, I do wonder (and despair) why it's so damn hard to make a female-helmed superhero on-screen successful!

Because they don't treat it the same way they treat male superheroes. They don't give them respect and ALWAYS reduce them to sex. In this case? They made Wonder Woman into Ally McBeal (small surprise when they got the creator of the show to write for them) and I don't want to see a WW who spends her time painting nails and crying that no one thinks her tits are large enough. I want to see a WW who embraces her heritage, who can play the game like men can. Who doesn't wallow in a pit of "men reject me!!!" despair. Who is someone I can look up to.

The Birds of Prey show also failed to make the super women in their scripts believable. Helena is a crime fighter (who doesn't wear a costume at all, much less one I like) who ALSO is a bartender. At night. When she's working? Why can Dianah do EVERYTHING? Why does Barbra work at a freaking school and pine after a teacher when we all KNOW she is going to be with Dick Greyson?! (Plus bad writing, bad acting - from everyone but Barbra and Harley - and bad directing) It was just a bad show.

Had they given it the same chance that they had given Smallville it would have gone a lot better.

I feel like when people see strong women they think "Oh, that'll be easy, put some pretty women up there who want men and can hold a weapon and we're golden! Buffy and Xena did it, so can we!" without stopping to ask WHY it works. And what people want from strong women.

Quite true. And I'll go one step further. As long as men write women characters as they want them to be, we'll have whiny, narcissistic, worried over a man's opinion of them women populating film and television.

Buffy and Xena scored with viewers because, while the characters wanted to have a relationship, their calling got in the way. And, while they might become a bit blue over a relationship gone sour, it wasn't the focus of their existence.

I'm sure that's not the reason the pilot failed; after all, most female heroes are accessible to the fanboys out there by how their roles are written (Trinity stands out as the perfect example). I imagine a bunch of suits sat around a table after screening the pilot and decided that Wonder Woman just wasn't fuckable enough to score with enough 16-30 year old men.

Yea, it's been a really rough month at work, and I may come off as a little sour. But I really think that was the basis for the final decision.

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Chris McMillan wrote:

Quite true. And I'll go one step further. As long as men write women characters as they want them to be, we'll have whiny, narcissistic, worried over a man's opinion of them women populating film and television.

Yup!

Let's not forget that one of the reason's that Ripley was so bad ass in Alien is that her character was originally written for a man.

Writer's today are overly-conscious of the fact their character is female when writing superhero characters such as Wonder Woman. The best way they could trick a writer into creating a great script for Wonder Woman is hire one and tell them they're writing about a man.

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A drag queen Wonder Woman?

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Tristan Sinns's picture
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Hans wrote:

A drag queen Wonder Woman?

No, not at all - the point is, when writers conceive of a male character, they just create "a character". When they conceive of a female character, they create "a character who is female". They do this by "womaning it up"; adding concern over fashion, weight, male interest, etc.

They need to cut that crap out - that's exactly what makes female characters so often weak in films; especially genre films. They just need to focus on creating a solid and strong personality without being overly focused on the gender of the character they are creating.

The reason they are not really conscious of the character's gender when the character is male, is because in our culture, male is the default personality. Writer's then don't really take into account the male gender, as it is just default. When they create a female character, they think, "oh - this is different. I'm going to have to change things from the default "male" and woman it up so that people recognize that this is a woman!".

This isn't a conscious thought process - but it is there.

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I agree with that. But it is possible to create a badass woman intentionally like Clarice Starling.

I wouldn't want to see this....

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Tristan Sinns wrote:

Yup!

Let's not forget that one of the reason's that Ripley was so bad ass in Alien is that her character was originally written for a man.

Yeah. That is something I bring up a lot at conventions. And half of the women in The Descent were originally meant to be men. It's VERY upsetting that some of the best women characters were supposed to be male at one point, why can't we just understand the human characters are freaking human and we should write them like that?

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Hans wrote:

I agree with that. But it is possible to create a badass woman intentionally like Clarice Starling.

I wouldn't want to see this....

And yet, I sense you went looking for her, so...

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Theron wrote:
Hans wrote:

I agree with that. But it is possible to create a badass woman intentionally like Clarice Starling.

I wouldn't want to see this....

And yet, I sense you went looking for her, so...

Doh!

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Hans wrote:
Theron wrote:
Hans wrote:

I agree with that. But it is possible to create a badass woman intentionally like Clarice Starling.

I wouldn't want to see this....

And yet, I sense you went looking for her, so...

Doh!

I know, right?

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Jenna M. Pitman wrote:
Tristan Sinns wrote:

Yup!

Let's not forget that one of the reason's that Ripley was so bad ass in Alien is that her character was originally written for a man.

Yeah. That is something I bring up a lot at conventions. And half of the women in The Descent were originally meant to be men. It's VERY upsetting that some of the best women characters were supposed to be male at one point, why can't we just understand the human characters are freaking human and we should write them like that?

Thanks, Tristan. I completely forgot that little tidbit.

But I had no idea that half the women in The Descent were written as men. Thanks for that little bit, Jenna. Unfortunately, it makes sense after thinking about it. And it really ticks me off that writers can't write strong, female characters without thinking writing them first as men. Thank god Neil Marshall went with the casting choices he made and (obviously) didn't change a thing.

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Lol! My questions was mostly rhetorical, but this'll do for an answer:)

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True.

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Obviously, all these women have to be in skin-tight leather to "score".

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I do miss Ripley.

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Absolutely, you don't bloody see Superman wondering how big his ass looks in his tights, and you shouldn't see someone as formidable as Wonder Woman doing it, either. Sheesh. DUH!

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Great. I did hit the "Reply" button, but none of them came out as they were supposed to.

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