Mink Stole ('Pink Flamingoes', 'Female Trouble')

By Andrew Shearer

One super 8 short ('Hag In A Black Leather Jacket") aside, Mink Stole has appeared in every John Waters film, beginning with 1966's 'Roman Candles" all the way through 2004's 'Dirty Shame". Along the way, she has appeared in numerous other television and independent film roles including cult and horror titles such as Gregg Araki's 'Splendor", Donald F. Glut's 'Vampire Hunters Club", Troma's 'Rowdy Girls", Dave DeCouteau's 'Ring Of Darkness" and Jamie Babbit'ss much-beloved modern classic "But I'm A Cheerleader"...

Mink's roles in early Waters trash cinema masterpieces 'Pink Flamingos" and 'Female Trouble" required her to square off against larger-than-life Divine (a cross between Elizabeth Taylor and Godzilla), playing the part of antagonist to the late transvestite star's homicidal anti-heroes and effectively cementing her legendary status forever among midnight movie fans. As the freaked-out suburban housewife Peggy Gravel, Mink's ability to reach ridiculous, fever-pitched heights of hysterics and menacing evil in 1977's 'Desperate Living" remains astonishing to this very day...

Author's Note: The hardest thing to do was to hang up the phone. After talking to Mink Stole you can't help but want her as a best friend. Since I don't have any adequate words to describe her personally I'll use a couple she is fond of: 'Wonderful" and 'Extraordinary". Thanks to Heidi and Ed Baran for making this interview possible and allowing me to speak to one of my cinematic heroes. I'll never forget it.Between appearing as 'the mother of the gay" in the latest low-budget comedies, she performs live on stage as 'Mink And Her Wonderful Band"; I recently had the honor of speaking with Mink via telephone to discuss acting, music, and making movies with your friends.

Mink: I did a horror movie convention (Chiller) in New Jersey last year and I was shocked at how huge a business this is. I don't really do horror movies and I don't go to horror movies, but people love this! People like nothing better than to see other people splattered with fake blood!

Andrew: I've been to a couple of them. The fans are just really drawn to extreme entertainment. They're definitely loyal; once they like you, they like you for life.

Mink: Forever and ever.

Andrew: So what was your experience as a convention guest, meeting fans and so forth?

M: I always like meeting fans, people are really sweet. I have a few extreme fans; people with my face tattooed on their arm; oh my god. There's this one woman, she's so great, I love her, she shows up and she's got these tattoos. I'm not the only face she has immortalized on her skin. I'm just like, oh my god! Because I have no tattoos or piercings.

A: Neither do I.

M: Yeah, they call us 'blanks".

A: Blanks?

M: Uh-huh. Yeah. I was working on a film several years ago with a lot of women, there were only two women on the set that were not tattooed and I was one of them. And someone else informed us that tattooed people call people with no tattoos 'blanks".

A: The audience for horror crosses over into cult film and b-movies as well, so I can definitely see why you'd have fans at a Chiller show. Mary Woronov ('Death Race 2000", 'Rock N Roll High School") is another example; she has a loyal following due to a body of genre work that spans decades. I'm fascinated by these sort of performers, not only interested in how they became involved but why they continued to go back to it over and over.

M: How I got into movies was sheer dumb luck; I was in the right place at the right time.

A: So you didn't have aspirations of being an actor?

M: Not particularly. I was 18 years old, I knew I didn't want to go to college but wasn't sure what it was I did want to do. I was kind of just looking for adventure. And I was in Provincetown for the summer and met John Waters; he was just starting his career and invited me to share it with him. I didn't go looking to meet him and he wasn't anybody when I met him. That's how it happened, it was sheer dumb luck, and the moral of that story is you've gotta leave the house. You have to go out. We were both from the same town (Baltimore) but we met in another city, we met someplace else. You have to get out, you have to do things and open yourself up, because the phone doesn't just ring. And that was a really hard lesson for me to learn because I expected after working with John that the phone would ring more than it did. You have to put yourself out there; you have to leave the house.

The reason I continue to do it? For one, people still ask me, and two, I love it. It's fun. You know, I live very simply; you don't get rich making independent films. If I had the money to go with the fame, life would be sweet! But yet, I wouldn't trade. My life is more interesting than most.

A: Since roles didn't continue to fall in your lap, how did you keep working?

M: I'm a little more active. I leave my house, I go out. I look for stuff.

A: What kinds of roles appeal to you most? Anything in particular you're looking for?

M: I tell everybody this, so if you read it in another interview please don't be angry: I would love to do drama. Nobody ever ever asks me to do a dramatic role (laughs)!

A: I can definitely see you doing it, parts you've played many times in the past are just a more ridiculous form of drama.

M: Well when someone thinks of a serious actor, my name isn't the first one that comes to mind.

A: In many of your earlier roles, your acting is over dramatic, not devoid of drama. Just dramatic to the point of being comedic.

M: Yes, the whole point of comedy is to play it straight. But at the same time when you're talking about mainstream filmmaking, when a mainstream filmmaker is looking for dramatic actors in my age group here's thinking Meryl Streep, Susan Sarandon. He's not thinking, 'You know there's that independent film actress who makes movies with guys who eat dog shit. I wonder what she'd be like in this!You know what I mean?

A: (Laughs) Perhaps an independently made drama then?

M: I'm not saying it couldn't happen, I'm saying that's what I'd like to do that I haven't yet really done. That's something I'd love.

A: So what's the difference between being on the old John Waters sets and the current ones?

M: Food. That's always my first answer (laughs). I'd say they're the same but also different. John still wants every word spoken as he wrote it. He's still very much in control that way. He's more relaxed because he has a larger crew, he's not the person who has to drive around and pick everybody up and bring them to the set. The fact that he can delegate a lot of those responsibilities has made a big difference.

A: You guys started out just making movies with your friends, so as time goes on and the budgets increase I wonder how much of that you might miss.

M: We're still around our friends. John has been working with the same core people for years and years. The changes that have come have been the sad ones. You know last year we lost (makeup artist) Van Smith who had been working with us forever. If anyone deserved an Oscar it was he. (Author's note: Van Smith was responsible for creating Divine;s look, makeup and clothes in many of Waters's films.)

A: I remember in John's book 'Shock Value" seeing the before and after photos of Susan Lowe who played 'Mole" in 'Desperate Living", it was incredible.

M: Incredible, that's Van. But because we were independent, because we weren't mainstream, he never got recognized. He was posthumously recognized. So those were the sad losses, but I'm sure today John would still be working with Divine, he'd be working with most everyone he worked with from the beginning. It's still kind of a homegrown production, just with additions.

A: I've read filmmaking articles that advise against using your friends, instead encouraging you to place ads and put up flyers at college campuses and so forth.

M: We were working before those articles were written, which may or may not have anything to do with why they were written (laughs), but I think it really depends on the personality of who's making the movie. John's personality is very strong. I think the danger of working with your friends is they tend to think they're just doing you a favor, so they might show up, they might not. With John, we never thought like that. If somebody goofed off, they didn't work again. We didn't have time or money to have people fucking around. We had work to do and if you didn't do it, you didn't work again. He might use what you did but wouldn't use you again if you were a problem. And we all wanted to work with him. Sometimes your friends might not give you the respect you need when you're on the set, if you're the director you have to be in control. Your friends can't be goofing off 'blah blah blah!" The important thing is to maintain some discipline and John never had a problem with that.

A: I think with the Dreamland players (the group of recurring performers in Waters's early films that included Stole, Divine, Mary Vivian Pearce, Edith Massey, Cookie Mueller and David Lochary), the fact that you were all friends adds to the way the productions feel, and I think it's part of the reason why people love those movies so much and want to watch them again and again. You sort of feel in on it when you watch.

M: I think that is part of it, I also think John wrote stories that hold up. He's written some very interesting scripts. But John never had a problem being the guy in charge. Some people do have a problem being the guy in charge; if that is a problem then you really can't use your friends. You can't use the people you were out drinking with the night before if you're not gonna be able to keep them in check. But that was never a problem for John (laughs).

A: The old scripts and stories definitely hold up! A few years ago John came to the University of Georgia campus to do a lecture. The following night they had a showing of 'Pink Flamingos" and I was excited to get to see it on the big screen, especially after having just seen John talk about it in person. The theater had an intermission, which happened just after the party scene with the singing asshole. Now we're talking about an audience of college students and hip locals, lots of younger people. So the movie stops for intermission and there's this giant collective gasp from the audience.

M: (Laughs)

A: I was really taken aback, in this sort of un-shockable culture we live in now it just made me love the movie even more because look what it did to this modern audience.

M: Yeah! That is pretty impressive!

A: This low-budget movie from 1972 still has that kind of power over a crowd. Just knowing of all the crazy shit, the horror movies and gross stuff these people have probably seen in the years since 'Flamingos" came out. Why do you think it is still able to have this effect?

M: Well, in that movie there's cannibalism. There's incest. There's the singing asshole. A lot of stuff going on. Also, when you think about that movie, the production value is pretty high. It was made for $12,000 which even in the 1970s was no money at all. The story follows; the movie's internal logic holds which doesn't always happen in movies. The characters are totally believable within this unbelievable setting. There's a commitment to the characters that is really extraordinary. And there's Edith Massey sitting in a playpen in bra and underpants! That is a shocking image! I don't know what about that movie wouldn't be shocking. We were all very blase' about it at the time, 'oh yeah, and Edie's in her underpants." When you're right there in front of it, it doesn't register just how extraordinary it is. You've got Divine with the hair shaved back with bright yellow hair and all that makeup living in a trailer in the middle of nowhere with her son. But it yet it worked as a family unit, you believed it.

A: Divine is usually the focus of books and articles about 'Flamingos" and other films you guys did around that time, but you always stood out to me because you had to play the foil for Divine.

M: I was always the foil!

A: Your roles were very important and all my favorite moments involve these screaming tirades John would have you perform.

M: (Laughs)

A: Your energy level is astounding.

M: Oh yeah - - I would get exhausted. It was exhausting. But it was never not fun...Most of the films I've worked on with or without John Waters,there was never a day where I thought, I don't wanna do this today. Every time I'm working on a movie I'm thinking, I'm so happy to be doing this. It really is one of the most fun things to do. It's just a wonderful, wonderful thing to be able to do and people who've never done it, and not everybody wants to, there are people who have no desire to be in a movie or on camera. I'm like, what? You don't wanna be in a movie?!

A: I know! But for some people, the mere idea is just mortifying.

M: It's the last thing in the world they want to do. They really really REALLY don't want to. There are quite a few. But most of the time when I'm working on a movie I just consider myself incredibly lucky to be able to have that in my life.

A: In the new movie 'Eating Out 2" you play the lead character's mother. Is this typical of the kind of parts you get offered?

M: This is the role I'm offered the most, 'the mother of the gay". I've played this particular role three times now. Twice as the mother of a lesbian ('Girl Play", 'But I'm A Cheerleader") and once as the mother of a gay son. Considering I'm a very gay-friendly actor, as I should be because I'm very gay-friendly, that's one of the reasons. Also, young gay filmmakers are familiar with my work so they're more likely to call me. 'Eating Out 2" was made very fast on a small budget but it came out really great. I was nervous because it showed at a festival two weeks after we finished shooting it. But then people started calling me and saying they saw me in this film and it was really fun. The filmmakers really knew what they were doing. I had a great time and the women in the movie are wonderful. Rebekah Kochan ('Halloween Night", 'Freakshow") is hysterical; she cracks me up whenever she's on screen. Despite being made quickly I was very happy with how it turned out.

A:They were shooting on video, weren't they? A lot of filmmakers do that now.

M: Yes.

A: That helps, the process is much faster.

M: It's a whole lot quicker than it used to be. But you know not everybody with a video camera can make a movie.

A: Believe me I know. There's still a craft to it, just because you're hitting a button.

M: That's the wonderful and terrible thing about video, that everyone with a dollar and a video camera can make a movie. And that's great. But it also means anyone with a dollar and a video camera can make a movie. And that's terrible. It makes it that much harder for the good stuff to find its way out of the pack.

A: We talked about Van Smith and what he was able to accomplish with no money and sometimes when you see the video stuff it's just like, I'm just watching some people in their house. There's no real art to it, there's no effort to make a character, they're just going through the paces and saying dialog.

M: That was one of the great things about those early films with John, we created these alternate realities. People don't really shoot liquid eyeliner, which was in 'Female Trouble". We created these realities and made them believable. It's really hard to get away with that, we got away with a lot of stuff! As I said earlier it's hard when you're right there doing it to really appreciate what's going on because your reality is always your reality. There's nothing extraordinary about it. People think,"Wow", but that was my normal. I had nine brothers and sisters, you know, that's my normal. Very few people's normal! The things we do well we think are easy to do, but it's not always easy. I can't knit, people who knit say, 'It's easy." No it's not. So when you're right there in it it's hard to really appreciate what's happening.

A: Your work affected and influenced many people, its had cultural impact and continues to be significant.

M: We know that now, I'm aware of it now, and I'm incredibly gratified by it. I can't even tell you how wonderful it is for people to say that. There was always acknowledgement that what we were doing might be more fun than what others might be doing, but that it would have any cultural significance whatsoever was not evident. You know what I mean?

A: You can't know.

M: That's right. You can't.

A: On the 'Date With John Waters" album you sing a song called 'Sometimes I Wish I Had A Gun", but I just found out recently that you've been playing live shows with an actual band. Do you want to record an album at some point?

M: I really do, I think I can do a really good one.

A: I saw a clip from one of your shows on "YouTube". It was outstanding, you sound great.

M: I love singing, I love the rehearsal process, I like every bit of it. But then I love the part of movie making where you sit around all day (laughs). But I love the music process and part of that is because I came to it late in life so I'm not burnt out on it. I started doing this in my 50s.

A: Who would you name as musical influences then?

M: I'll tell you who I sing if that helps. I'm pretty old school, I do Edith Piaf. I do Lyle Lovett; I'm kind of all over the place. But my singing style is more of a crooning, you've heard it. My influences would be Dinah Washington, Julie London.

A: I think if you did do a record and a limited city tour, it would do well. Fans would all run out to see it because it's Mink Stole, and they know it will be fun and you'll go into it with a lot of energy.

M: People do expect me to be fun. And I try my best, believe me! (Laughs) Fun is important.

A: Do people expect you to be this crazy person because of the movies you've been in?

M: People expect me to have purple hair, a bone in my nose. I'm way too old for all that and never got into it in the first place. But there is an expectation people have. But you know that's their problem and not yours (laughs).

A: I don't want to take up any more of your time, I just want to tell you it's been a huge honor for me to get to talk to you. When I first called I was trying so hard not to drop the phone 'cause my hand was shaking so much!

M: Oh I'm actually pretty easy.

A: You are, and I knew you would be, I just had to get over my initial freak-out! You helped by being so cool. Thank you! Now I've got to turn this into some kind of article for my boss.

M: I admire you for writing; I think writing is the hardest thing in the world to do.

Author's Note: The hardest thing to do was to hang up the phone. After talking to Mink Stole you can't help but want her as a best friend. Since I don't have any adequate words to describe her personally I'll use a couple she is fond of: 'Wonderful" and 'Extraordinary". Thanks to Heidi and Ed Baran for making this interview possible and allowing me to speak to one of my cinematic heroes. I'll never forget it.